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	<title>Comments on: The real nativity</title>
	<atom:link href="http://armchairdissident.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/the-real-nativity/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://armchairdissident.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/the-real-nativity/</link>
	<description>Musings from a UK skeptic who's tired of shouting ineffectually at his TV</description>
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		<title>By: armchairdissident</title>
		<link>http://armchairdissident.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/the-real-nativity/#comment-6</link>
		<dc:creator>armchairdissident</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://armchairdissident.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/the-real-nativity/#comment-6</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’ve grown used to theists making a big to-do about people not knowing their Scripture, but what bothers me more is when atheists accept these sorts of polls as evidence that people are “culturally illiterate,” or ignorant of some grand knowledge base we supposedly need to understand European history, art and whatnot&quot;

Here, here.  I&#039;ve never understood, and probably will never understand, this recent rush to applaud the bible as a great work of literature, whilst simultaneously deriding the concepts within it.  The simple fact is that even as literature it&#039;s naff.  Good literature - say, Dickens or Shakespeare, is at least coherent; not a claim the bible could make.  I&#039;d be interested to see if the apparent trend towards not doing nativity plays is not so much political correctness, but simply because the story is so damnably dire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’ve grown used to theists making a big to-do about people not knowing their Scripture, but what bothers me more is when atheists accept these sorts of polls as evidence that people are “culturally illiterate,” or ignorant of some grand knowledge base we supposedly need to understand European history, art and whatnot&#8221;</p>
<p>Here, here.  I&#8217;ve never understood, and probably will never understand, this recent rush to applaud the bible as a great work of literature, whilst simultaneously deriding the concepts within it.  The simple fact is that even as literature it&#8217;s naff.  Good literature &#8211; say, Dickens or Shakespeare, is at least coherent; not a claim the bible could make.  I&#8217;d be interested to see if the apparent trend towards not doing nativity plays is not so much political correctness, but simply because the story is so damnably dire.</p>
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		<title>By: Science After Sunclipse</title>
		<link>http://armchairdissident.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/the-real-nativity/#comment-5</link>
		<dc:creator>Science After Sunclipse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 04:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://armchairdissident.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/the-real-nativity/#comment-5</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;What I Value Most in Life&lt;/strong&gt;

I was just about to settle in with a slice of chocolate cake, fresh from the oven, and a DVD of Laura (1944), when I noticed that a new Carnival of the Godless had come online.  While skimming the essays therein collected, I left a comment at John Wils...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>What I Value Most in Life</strong></p>
<p>I was just about to settle in with a slice of chocolate cake, fresh from the oven, and a DVD of Laura (1944), when I noticed that a new Carnival of the Godless had come online.  While skimming the essays therein collected, I left a comment at John Wils&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Blake Stacey</title>
		<link>http://armchairdissident.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/the-real-nativity/#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake Stacey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 01:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In my last paragraph above, I was thinking of &lt;a href=&quot;http://richarddawkins.net/article,2055,Sorry-to-disappoint-but-its-nonsense-to-suggest-we-want-to-ban-Christmas,Polly-Toynbee&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;essays like this&lt;/a&gt; (sorry for not linking before), in which Polly Toynbee cites the same Theos survey dissected in this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my last paragraph above, I was thinking of <a href="http://richarddawkins.net/article,2055,Sorry-to-disappoint-but-its-nonsense-to-suggest-we-want-to-ban-Christmas,Polly-Toynbee" rel="nofollow">essays like this</a> (sorry for not linking before), in which Polly Toynbee cites the same Theos survey dissected in this post.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake Stacey</title>
		<link>http://armchairdissident.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/the-real-nativity/#comment-3</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake Stacey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 01:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://armchairdissident.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/the-real-nativity/#comment-3</guid>
		<description>I think the standard story for why all that stuff appears in Matthew but not the other gospels &#8212; even the other &lt;i&gt;synoptic&lt;/i&gt; gospels &#8212; is that Matthew was writing for a Jewish audience familiar with Old Testament lore, and therefore he went out of his way to make Jesus&#039; story parallel that of Moses.  Did Moses escape a slaughter of the innocents?  Well, then, so did Jesus.  Did Moses come out of Egypt?  Well, then, so did Jesus.  Jewish traditions are also noticeably more patriarchal than Greek ones (compare the women in the Old Testament against those of classical Greek mythology), so in Matthew, the angel appears to the &lt;i&gt;father,&lt;/i&gt; while the evangelist Luke, writing from a Hellenized background, makes the mother the central figure.

Of course, the virgin birth itself falls into the same category.  It&#039;s supposed to fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14, but the Hebrew word translated &quot;virgin&quot; in that verse doesn&#039;t actually &lt;i&gt;mean&lt;/i&gt; virgin &#8212; and even if you try to cook up some way in which it does, Matthew&#039;s interpretation &lt;i&gt;still&lt;/i&gt; doesn&#039;t make sense, because in Isaiah 7, the prophet is trying to convince his king that he knows what he&#039;s prophesying about, and you don&#039;t do that by announcing that something will happen seven centuries later.  Read on to Isaiah 8 to find out that the prophecy was fulfilled by Isaiah&#039;s own son, anyway. . . .

I&#039;ve grown used to theists making a big to-do about people not knowing their Scripture, but what bothers me more is when &lt;i&gt;atheists&lt;/i&gt; accept these sorts of polls as evidence that people are &quot;culturally illiterate,&quot; or ignorant of some grand knowledge base we supposedly need to understand European history, art and whatnot.  First of all, name one king who based his divine right of kingship upon the claim that Jesus and John the Baptist were first cousins once removed!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the standard story for why all that stuff appears in Matthew but not the other gospels &mdash; even the other <i>synoptic</i> gospels &mdash; is that Matthew was writing for a Jewish audience familiar with Old Testament lore, and therefore he went out of his way to make Jesus&#8217; story parallel that of Moses.  Did Moses escape a slaughter of the innocents?  Well, then, so did Jesus.  Did Moses come out of Egypt?  Well, then, so did Jesus.  Jewish traditions are also noticeably more patriarchal than Greek ones (compare the women in the Old Testament against those of classical Greek mythology), so in Matthew, the angel appears to the <i>father,</i> while the evangelist Luke, writing from a Hellenized background, makes the mother the central figure.</p>
<p>Of course, the virgin birth itself falls into the same category.  It&#8217;s supposed to fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14, but the Hebrew word translated &#8220;virgin&#8221; in that verse doesn&#8217;t actually <i>mean</i> virgin &mdash; and even if you try to cook up some way in which it does, Matthew&#8217;s interpretation <i>still</i> doesn&#8217;t make sense, because in Isaiah 7, the prophet is trying to convince his king that he knows what he&#8217;s prophesying about, and you don&#8217;t do that by announcing that something will happen seven centuries later.  Read on to Isaiah 8 to find out that the prophecy was fulfilled by Isaiah&#8217;s own son, anyway. . . .</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve grown used to theists making a big to-do about people not knowing their Scripture, but what bothers me more is when <i>atheists</i> accept these sorts of polls as evidence that people are &#8220;culturally illiterate,&#8221; or ignorant of some grand knowledge base we supposedly need to understand European history, art and whatnot.  First of all, name one king who based his divine right of kingship upon the claim that Jesus and John the Baptist were first cousins once removed!</p>
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